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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bystander wrote: | Something about this topic continues to elude me;
| Andre wrote: | | (snip)At that point in 1999 I asked myself: wtf? Was it getting warmer or colder? (snip) Here was a mystery to be solved, which clearly showed that our understanding of ice cores and climate cannot be right.(snip) |
specifically, "What is the 'mystery to be solved?' "
Is there a two or three sentence problem statement summing up which sets of facts are to be reconciled with which other sets of facts? i.e., cold Cordilleran and Laurentide N. Amer. w' warm Siberia, or, something similar?
Not trying to be difficult, but every time this subject came up elsewhere, I completely failed to see the gist of the argument(s) being presented. |
Sure, fair enough, Sorry no offense, only a few seem to see it, for me the puzzling thing is indeed your question, not seeing a problem.
So picture me watching Discovery channel in 1999. They are cutting the block of permafrost ice containing the Jarkov mammoth, in the high arctic tundra, in the snow, telling that the remains are about 20,000 years old. My knowledge of the ice ages then indeed included that in that time there was that Last Glacial Maximum when the Earth was 10-12 degrees colder than presently. i looked a lot of discovery channel then. So looking at that landscape, I project 10-12 degrees lower temperature but then they tell that they found water plants in the ice block. they also found fungi which are associated with a high density of megafauna. So, here is an area which must have been permanently deep frozen year around in the last glacial maximum and there were waterplants and a dense population of megafauna, ? That was my mystery.
Later I learned that the Siberian Megafauna steppe closely resembles the steppes of Mongolia or the Canadian prairies with horses, deer, antilopes, lions, etc, etc, and yes mammoths too. Cold in wintertime, certainly, but warm enough in summertime to grow grass, plain normal steppe grass, enough to sustain the herds around the year.
Some refs:
| Quote: | Alfimov, A.V., Berman, D.I., and Sher, A.V., 2003 - Tundra-steppe insect assemblages and reconstruction of Late Pleistocene climate in the lower reaches of the Kolyma River - Zoologicheskiy Zhurnal 82 (2): 281-300 (in Russian)
Andreev, A., Siegert C., Klimanov V., Derevyagin A., Shilova G., Melles M., 2002. Late Pleistocene and Holocene Vegetation and Climate on the Taimyr Lowland, Northern Siberia. Quaternary Research, 57, pp.138–150.
Andreev, A., Tarasov P., Klimanov V., Melles M., Lisitsyna O., Hubberten H., 2004. Vegetation and climate changes around the Lama Lake, Taymyr Peninsula, Russia during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene. Quaternary International, Volume 122, Issue 1, pp. 69-84.
Chebykin, E.P., Edgington D.N., Grachev M.A., Zheleznyakova T.O., Vorobyova S.S., Kulikova N.S., Azarova I.N., Khlystova O.M., Goldberg E.L., 2002. Abrupt increase in precipitation and weathering of soils in East Siberia coincident with the end of the last glaciation (15 cal kyr BP). Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Volume 200, Issues 1-2, 20 June, pp. 167-175.
Mol, D., Tikhonov A., van der Plicht J., Kahlke R-D., Debruyne R., van Geel B., van Reenen G., Pals J. P., de Marliave C., Reumer J.W.F., 2006. Results of the CERPOLEX/Mammuthus Expeditions on the Taimyr Peninsula, Arctic Siberia. Russian Federation Quaternary International, January volumes 142-143 pp. 186-202.
Schirrmeister, L., Siegert C., Kuznetsova T., Andreev A., Kienast F., Meyer H., Brobov A., 2002. Paleoenvironmental and paleoclimatic records from permafrost deposits in the Arctic region of Nothern Siberia. Quaternary International, 89, pp. 97-118
Zazula, G.D., Schweger C.E., Beaudoin A.B., McCourt G.H., 2006. Macrofossil and pollen evidence for full-glacial steppe within an ecological mosaic along the Bluefish River, eastern Beringia. Quaternary International, January volumes 142-143, pp. 2-19. |
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scpg02
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 221
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| This is why I like forums like this. You don't get this stuff anywhere else. |
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| scpg02 wrote: | | This is why I like forums like this. You don't get this stuff anywhere else. |
Thanks, there is plenty more where this is coming from. 
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Bystander
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre wrote: | | Bystander wrote: | | (snip)Is there a two or three sentence problem statement summing up which sets of facts are to be reconciled with which other sets of facts? (snip) |
(snip) ... , telling that the remains are about 20,000 years old. My knowledge of the ice ages then indeed included that in that time there was that Last Glacial Maximum when the Earth was 10-12 degrees colder than presently. i looked a lot of discovery channel then. So looking at that landscape, I project 10-12 degrees lower temperature |
First sentence of the problem statement: you are led to a conclusion by the "infotainment" industry.
| Quote: | | (I'll delete the "but") Then they tell that they found water plants in the ice block. they also found fungi which are associated with a high density of megafauna. |
Second sentence: they spring "the surprise" on you.
| Quote: | So, here is an area which must have been permanently deep frozen year around in the last glacial maximum and there were waterplants and a dense population of megafauna, ? That was my mystery.
Later I learned that the Siberian Megafauna steppe closely resembles the steppes of Mongolia or the Canadian prairies with horses, deer, antilopes, lions, etc, etc, and yes mammoths too. Cold in wintertime, certainly, but warm enough in summertime to grow grass, plain normal steppe grass, enough to sustain the herds around the year.
(snip) |
... and, a summary of the problem statement and the results of the reading you did to resolve the problem. Okay, now we're all on the same page re. "ice ages," longitudinal variations in habitability, weather patterns, snow & ice cover, flora, fauna, seasonal average temperatures. |
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bystander wrote: |
First sentence of the problem statement: you are led to a conclusion by the "infotainment" industry.
[...
Second sentence: they spring "the surprise" on you.
...
and, a summary of the problem statement and the results of the reading you did to resolve the problem. Okay, now we're all on the same page re. "ice ages," longitudinal variations in habitability, weather patterns, snow & ice cover, flora, fauna, seasonal average temperatures. |
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Nowadays I'm very aware how the infotainment can distort facts. In the case of the Jarkov, they did not. It's all there.
The problem with the megafauna steppe is it's impossible lattitude. We're talking about 75+ degrees North, the highest lattitude where megafauna remains of the steppe have been found is on the middle idland of the Severnaya Zemblya island group ~80 degrees NB about 320 miles from the North Pole.
Perhaps a interesting detail about the Yukagir Mammoth.
Finding place:
71° 52’ 988” N - 140° 34’ 873” E, Yakutia close to the Arctic coast
is pretty north, right?
Dating: ~18,300 carbon years BP or roughly 22,000 Cal years BP, say after the beginning of the Last Glacial Maximum at 23,000 cal yrs BP
Identified contents of the guts:
Source:
Aptroot A, B van Geel 2006 Fungi of the colon of the Yukagir Mammoth and from stratigraphically related permafrost samples, Review of Palaeobotany and Palynology 141 (2006) 225–230
See that Sanguisorba officinalis, the Great Burnet?
Check it's hardiness: US Hardiness zone 5
which is located in the centre of the USA:
the Light and dark green area
But that's around 40 degrees North, not 70 degrees North
That's the problem.
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Bystander
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre wrote: |
(snip)The problem with the megafauna steppe is it's impossible lattitude. We're talking about 75+ degrees North, the highest lattitude where megafauna remains of the steppe have been found is on the middle idland of the Severnaya Zemblya island group ~80 degrees NB about 320 miles from the North Pole. |
It's clearly not "impossible." If remains have been found at 80 N, the range is at least 80 N.
| Quote: | (snip)But that's around 40 degrees North, not 70 degrees North
That's the problem. |
How many habitability zones on the USDA map have a latitudinal range of 30 degrees? I'm seeing a couple (given that my interpretation of 2.5 degree "squares" is correct). Today's noon temperature in the Gulf of Bothnia cannot be used to predict noon temperature on the coasts or interior of Greenland at the same latitude.
What is inconsistent with simultaneity of a temperate N. Asian climate and a N. Amer. glacial maximum? A 2-3 km thick ice plateau of 10-15 million square kilometers areal extent is going to have a significant extent on weather patterns, heat flows, atmospheric and oceanic circulations, and habitability zones in the northern hemisphere. It's an orographic precipitation trap for moisture moving south from the Arctic, north from the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico, and a katabatic wind source for warming the N. Atl., Eur., and probably the Arctic circumpolar circulation and N. Asia. It's at max and everything's temperate in Asia --- it collapses, no more katabatic wind, and Asia freezes. No, I haven't done the mass and energy balances on it --- Gulf Stream and N. Eur., Med., deserts in the Himalyan wind shadow --- lotta energy moving S. to N. in the wind and water. |
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scpg02
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 221
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre wrote: | | scpg02 wrote: | | This is why I like forums like this. You don't get this stuff anywhere else. |
Thanks, there is plenty more where this is coming from. |
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| scpg02 wrote: | | |
 Okay, I'm happy to also give you the Fishhook Mammoth
| Quote: | | The Fishhook or Hook Mammoth is a 20,620 +/- 70 BP old woolly mammoth carcass. (that's 24,680 +/- 120 Cal years BP- Andre) It was discovered in the estuary of the Upper Taimyra River, Taimyr Peninsula, Siberia, in 1990 and some parts of the carcass were removed in 1990 and 1992. After the site had been flooded for 8 years, it was rediscovered in 2000. In May 2001 the remains were excavated as a part of the CERPOLEX/Mammuthus program "Who or What Killed the Mammoths". The remaining parts of the carcass, including soft tissue, fur and underfur were exctracted from the frozen ground together with the surrounding sediments to learn more about the environment and the time of death of the Fishhook Mammoth. |
At that time, this was not derived yet (Mol et al 2006):
| Quote: | The conclusion from the paleoecological analysis may be summarized as follows: the Fishhook Mammoth had been grazing a moist, open vegetation dominated by grasses, with a lot of mosses in the ground
cover. However, the presence of vegetation types of dry ground, as well as border scrub of forest tundra is also reflected by the plant remains. The find of Larix (Fig. 15) is especially interesting, because the site where the Fishhook Mammoth was found is situated at about 200km north of the present timber line. |
Emphasis mine.
Conclusion: it's very hard to get Ice age Siberia as cold as it should have been.
Ref:
Mol, D., et al 2006. Results of the CERPOLEX/Mammuthus Expeditions on the Taimyr Peninsula, Arctic Siberia. Russian Federation Quaternary International, January volumes 142-143 pp. 186-202.
Incidently, I have some gig's of that kind of PDF's in my computer. Just drop me an e-mail.
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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This is a reconstruction of the Fishhook mammoth as it was found for the first time. It was made by the brothers Kennis & Kennis.
Something about the colour of the fur. As can be seen here the colour is reddish brown, yet the reconstructed model of the Yukagir is more dark grey, little or no brown hues? Why?
Hairs recovered deeper in the permafrost are grey but once exposed to the atmosphere, the colour shifts to brown in a few days to weeks, likely due to decay and oxidation. So all the paintings and models of red-brown mammoths are wrong. They were grey, see the little patch of fur below the belly of the baby? An idea for a project?
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NileQueen
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 77
Location: southern Indiana/Cincinnati Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: |
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See: Discoveries of woolly mammoth, Mammuthus primigenius (Proboscidea: Elephantidae) and some other Pleistocene mammals on the Taimyr Peninsula, by Dick Mol, Alexei N. Tikhonov, Johannes van der Plicht & Dmitry Yu Bolshiyanov, Russian Journal of Theriology 2003, 2 (2):77-95.
p. 91. On integrating the new AMS dates on mammoth with previous catalogues of Russian dates for the Taimyr peninsula (Kind & Leonov, 1982; Sulerzhitskii & Romanenko, 1997), an interesting pattern emerges. Dates are roughly evenly distributed except for three prominent gaps for which there are few or no dates: several thousands years prior to 35,000 (mid-Kargian interstadial), 18-14,000 (immediately after Last Glacial Maximum); and after 10,000 (beginning of Holocene). An unpaired t-test of the grouped data was significant, sugggesting tht the gaps are real. The last gap is easily explained--mammoths became extinct (except for the Wrangel populations) just after 10,000 BP in Eurasia. But mammoth populations recovered after the other two gaps; they must represent periods when the Taimyr was not a favorable habitat for mammoths, or when taphonomoic conditions were different. If mammoth populations were able to recover during interstadial conditions as well as after the coldest phase of the late Weichselian/upper Zyryansk(Sartan) stadial, it seems unlikely that climate change alone can explain their complete loss from the mainland around 10,000 BP (MacPhee et al., 2002).
Owing to data accumulated in the last few years, including new paleontological finds, radiocarbon dates on mammoth remains, description of the structure of Quaternary deposits and relief of the Taimyr Lake basin, it is possible to note an interesting relationship. The correlation between flow fluctuation of the lake and presence of mammoths on its banks is striking. Favorable conditions for mammoths arose in the following time intervals: 10-14, 16-18, 20-21, and 20-25 thousands years ago. These were times of low water level in the lake. The majority of dated mammoth bones are known from the last interval. Until now there have been no dates beween 14-16, 18-20, and 25-27 thousands years ago from this region. Those were times of high water levels. The water level of the lake fluctuated greatly at the end of the Late Pleistocene. The highest points during the Karginskyi transgression exceed the recent one by 30-40 m. At that time the vast territories of Taimyr lowland were flooded. Rivers became estuaries, and Pyasina River and Taimyra River as two estuaries were united in one basin. At the same time some species of fresh water organisms from Baikal Lake penetrated to the Pyasina River and Taimyr Lake. |
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NileQueen
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 77
Location: southern Indiana/Cincinnati Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
See that Sanguisorba officinalis, the Great Burnet?
Check it's hardiness: US Hardiness zone 5
which is located in the centre of the USA:
the Light and dark green area
But that's around 40 degrees North, not 70 degrees North
That's the problem. |
Before you oversimplify, note that those green areas also run way up north into Alaska. |
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| NileQueen wrote: | | Quote: |
See that Sanguisorba officinalis, the Great Burnet?
Check it's hardiness: US Hardiness zone 5
which is located in the centre of the USA.
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Before you oversimplify, note that those green areas also run way up north into Alaska. |
you are right of course, hardiness zones do not signify average temperatures but tell something about minimum winter temperatures. Obviously close to the coast, the effects of the ocean moderates minimum winter temperatures. So the presence of theses species means that minimum winter temperatures of present day mid USA compare to the the Meerfelder Maar during the Younger Dryas (and Yakutia, Northern Siberia at the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum).
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NileQueen
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 77
Location: southern Indiana/Cincinnati Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Andre wrote: | | Quote: |
Before you oversimplify, note that those green areas also run way up north into Alaska. |
you are right of course, hardiness zones do not signify average temperatures but tell something about minimum winter temperatures. Obviously close to the coast, the effects of the ocean moderates minimum winter temperatures. So the presence of theses species means that minimum winter temperatures of present day mid USA compare to the the Meerfelder Maar during the Younger Dryas (and Yakutia, Northern Siberia at the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum). |
And couldn't it be argued that Taimyr is also on the coast with the ocean mitigating winter temperature? But not so today... |
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Andre
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Germany - The Nederlands
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Certainly, but indeed you need an open ocean for that, not a solid frozen ice mass.
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NileQueen
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 77
Location: southern Indiana/Cincinnati Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre wrote: | | Certainly, but indeed you need an open ocean for that, not a solid frozen ice mass. |
My point is, why wasn't there sea ice in the Mammoth heyday?
We know that sealevel was 300-400 feet lower,
salinity would have been higher
and coastlines then would have been extended outward from where they are today because of the lower sealevels.
I wonder if there are mammoth fossils at the bottom of the Arctic sea?
Much of Alaska and the northern coast of Canada was also ice free wasn't it?
At any rate, the Arctic Ocean would have been smaller in surface area, shallower in depth and would have had higher salinity.
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