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NileQueen

Preservation of megafauna carcasses.

Okay so mammoth carcasses and at least a reindeer carcass have been found preserved in Siberia. i.e.
The Adams mammoth
Baby Dima,
Jarkov Mammoth,
Yukagir Mammoth (~18,500 14C date),
the new baby mammoth
Fishhook mammoth (~20,000 ya)
http://www.cq.rm.cnr.it/elephants2001/pdf/310_313.pdf

Quote:

Frozen carcasses

The preserved baby woolly mammoth named Dima (Lucerne, Switzerland).
One-of-a-kind stuffed mammoth in The Museum of Zoology, St. Petersburg, found from River BerezovkaPreserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. Though judging by the evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens, neither starvation nor exposure seem likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[2] The animals may have fallen through frozen ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 9,000 bones from at least 156 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[citation needed]

In 1977, the well-preserved carcass of a 7- to 8-month old baby woolly mammoth, named "Dima", was discovered. This carcass was recovered from permafrost on a tributary of the Kolyma River in northeastern Siberia. This baby woolly mammoth weighed approximately 100 kg at death and was 104 cm high and 115 cm long. Radiocarbon dating determined that Dima died about 40,000 years ago. Its internal organs are similar to those of living elephants, but its ears are only one-tenth the size of those of an African elephant of similar age.[1]

In the summer of 1997, a Dolgan family named Jarkov discovered a piece of mammoth tusk protruding from the tundra of the Taymyr Peninsula in Siberia, Russia. In September/October 1999 this 20,380-year-old carcass and the surrounding sediment were flown to an ice cave in Khatanga, Taymyr Autonomous Okrug. In October 2000, the careful defrosting operations in this cave began with the use of hairdryers to keep the hair and other soft tissues intact.[3]

To date, thirty-nine preserved bodies have been found, but only four of them are complete. In most cases the flesh shows signs of decay before its freezing and later desiccation. Stories abound about frozen mammoth corpses that were still edible once defrosted, but the original sources indicate that the corpses were in fact terribly decayed, and the stench so unbearable that only the dogs accompanying the finders showed any interest in the flesh.[4]

In addition to frozen corpses, large amounts of mammoth ivory have been found in Siberia. Mammoth tusks have been articles of trade for at least 2,000 years.[citation needed] They have been and are still a highly prized commodity. Güyük, the 13th century Khan of the Mongols, is reputed to have sat on a throne made from mammoth ivory,[citation needed] and even today it is in great demand as a replacement for the now-banned export of elephant ivory.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_Mammoth
caution: it's Wikipedia and data needs to be checked.

see also
http://www.cq.rm.cnr.it/elephants2001/pdf/289_292.pdf
New data on the “Mammoth” fauna
of the Laptev Shelf Land (East Siberian Arctic)

See: The carcasses of the mammoth and the rhinoceros found in the frozen ground of Siberia, by Tolmachoff
Philiadelphia, the American Philosophical Society 1929
78 pages
in JSTOR

Okay so my reason in bringing t his up, is we want to be able to understand how these carcasses get preserved. They are not flash frozen but preserved in lacustrine (lake) or riverine settings. They seem to get preserved in the mud.
These mummies date to around 20,000 years ago

At the mammoth site in Hot Springs, South Dakota, North America
there is a site that was thought to be a sinkhole pond. At least 56
mammoths (these are probably Columbian rather than woolly mammoths though) are preserved in the lithified sediement there. There are still hot springs in the area, and it is a dry area today. All skeletons are male, btw, probably because males were solitary and females (as compared to modern day elephants) travel in groups (matriarchal herds). The sides of the sinkhole would have been steep and slick.

A little bird told me that bird tracks were found preserved in the bonebed.
This seems to indicate that, rather than a pond, it was a mudflat or
quicksand type setting. If this was the case, none of these beasts were mummified; it is a bonebed, all are fossilized. But this is a hot spring area.
Siberia was a dry steppe but had rivers at LGM of course. There are a couple gaps in fossil dates, perhaps because of flooding of the area, but
the mummies found may just have got stuck in the mud and preserved.
The Yukagir was old and had arthritis so may not have been able to extricate himself.

Some things to think about:

elephants today cake themselves with mud to protect their skin. Would woolly mammoths have done this? Would Columbians have done this? Woolies may not have had a need, but Columbians may have.

If lakes or rivers were drying out, the edges may have become very muddy and created a situation where thirsty mammoths may have got
stuck.

When flooding occurred, the wet sediments may have made travel difficult and animals may have got trapped and preserved this way.

Liquifaction is a factor we have considered also
http://www.ce.washington.edu/~liquefaction/html/main.html


The various mummies found, though, may have got preserved under different circumstances. These are just a few ideas.
Andre

good stuff.

You would say that all is required is a thorough investigation of the mummy remains to see if compounds are typical for peat mummies.

About the liquefaction. If that is to be true, one would also expect the destruction of laminated sediments. No chance of course to investigate the locations where the mummies were found.
Baywax

Very good look a this phenomenon NileQueen.

I am still thinking there may have been glacial lakes bursting through their ice dams, causing catastrophic floods (called "land tsunamis") even 20,000 ya.

http://www.iafi.org/

http://www.nps.gov/iceagefloods/

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=127303 (tons of info in my thread here!)

This may have been the initial cause of their demise. This would, for the most part, tend to either pile them together in narrows or to separate them over a large distance. Often the current of a large amount of water will gather debris (carcasses) together and they end up in a group, down stream. (However, the Land Tsunamis are now thought to have traveled thousands of miles across land.) But, that aside, the amount of sediment that would also be traaveling with the carcasses may provide the proper amount of coverage to begin preservation.... followed by bouts of very cold winters.


Why can't we visit the mummification sites?
Andre

problem for that are the various ages of the mummies ranging somewhere between 40,000 and 8-9000 years. I seem to recall that the youngest mummie is from a reindeer with partial intestines preserved.

Another thing is why mainly mammoth mummies. About from that reindeer the only other non Mammoth is Blue Babe, a steppe bison in Alaska
Baywax

Andre wrote:
problem for that are the various ages of the mummies ranging somewhere between 40,000 and 8-9000 years. I seem to recall that the youngest mummie is from a reindeer with partial intestines preserved.

Another thing is why mainly mammoth mummies. About from that reindeer the only other non Mammoth is Blue Babe, a steppe bison in Alaska


OK, that's a problem! ...........processing........
Essan

Andre wrote:

Another thing is why mainly mammoth mummies. About from that reindeer the only other non Mammoth is Blue Babe, a steppe bison in Alaska


I'm sure I've read of a few fairly well preserved horses being found? In fact isn't there an example in Dale Guthrie's book? But horses don't have the same public glamour of the mighty woolly mammoth.
Andre

Essan wrote:
Andre wrote:

Another thing is why mainly mammoth mummies. About from that reindeer the only other non Mammoth is Blue Babe, a steppe bison in Alaska


I'm sure I've read of a few fairly well preserved horses being found? In fact isn't there an example in Dale Guthrie's book? But horses don't have the same public glamour of the mighty woolly mammoth.


You may be right. I don't recall that. Dick and I had discussed this, so I asked about only mammoths mummies and I think he replied about that reindeer. We philosophied that other animals may heve been better equiped to escape certain traps (i.e. marshes, swamps) than mammoths, which would cause the mummifications.
NileQueen

Andy is right.
I think if we searched literature about
Alaska we would find the muckbeds with all kinds of animals in it.

I recall at least one horse in Siberia. Miners in a cave were hanging their
lamp on his hoof which was protruding down through the mine's ceiling.
Finally they realized what it was, and it got excavated. I think it may have been missing a head but would have to verify that part.

Baywax, Siberia is a long way away and commercial airliners that the west uses do not go there. So you can't book your flight all the way to Yakutsk, say, on Expedia. 10 months of the year it is really cold with permafrost.
In the 2 mild summer months, the ground thaws maybe 5 ft. down. What's on top is mud. So how are you going to get out into the field (no roads) and look for those carcasses? Generally the local people report finds back. OFten they are looking for the ivory of mammoths, and that may be why we hear about them. If it is a horse, of what value is that to a mammoth hunter?

NQ Smile
Baywax

NileQueen,

Ah, so its the old problem of what gets reported rather than what is
actually in the permafrost.

As for the mud, tundra, 10 frozen months and iffy summers...
ever been to Canada?!!!
Andre

Baywax wrote:
NileQueen,

ever been to Canada?!!!


I have lived in Canada for almost two years for fighter pilot training (Aug 1977- May 1979). Portage la Prarie, Manitoba, Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, Cold Lake/Grand centre, Alberta. Been back several times after that. Low flying in Goose Bay Labrador, 4-5 times in the 1990ies 2 weeks each. doing 600 knots at 100 feet. Nothing in the world can even begin about thinking to beat that. Did a sea survival course in Comox and an Arctic Survival course in Resolute Bay.

Allways enjoyed being in Canada, except the language in the military is polluted far too much with a certain four letter word.
Baywax

A four letter word.... hmmm... beer?!

Andre, what did you think of Comox? There's a bunch of archaeology there. I've done a survey in Sooke on the island there of some very interesting cuts in the pure granite at the bed of a stream. They were perfectly circular 5 ft x 5ft and about 2 feet deep into the granite.

I was fairly convinced I'd found the first evidence of First Nation megalithic construction! However it was pointed out by someone with the idea that these cuts were made at the turn of the century, producing mill stones for the local grainery mills.

Again, mind you, I didn't ever see the mill stones that were proportedly cut from these shadows of their past. And, this was the first time I wished I could date hewn stone for the period it was worked.

Fighter Jets? Sounds about as effing exciting as a mud fight in Nanuvik.



Wheee!



Wheee!

I can get you an AVRO baseball cap if you like. They built the Avro Aero that was soon taken by the USAA because it scared them. Wink

Ever try a Foo Fighter? Wink

As for the different ages in die offs of mammoths, could there not have been "occurrence(s) of rapid climatic variation during the last ice age"? Thus rendering conditions sometimes favourable for the herd and sometimes not so favourable. Sometimes flooding, muddy or with thin ice conditions.

quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core
scpg02

Quote:
And, this was the first time I wished I could date hewn stone for the period it was worked.


Can't they do that by measuring the amount of oxidation the stone has undergone? Seems like they did that with the Sphinx because of the controversy over when it was constructed. I happen to agree with Dr. Schoch on that one BTW.
Andre

[quote="Baywax"]A four letter word.... hmmm... beer?![quote]

Close.

Quote:
Andre, what did you think of Comox?


Well, it was a long time ago. I remember a lot of nature, distant whales and a bald eagle sitting on top of a street light

Quote:
And, this was the first time I wished I could date hewn stone for the period it was worked.


There are methods for dating exposure, depending on the composition. Maggie mentioned oxidation/ coloration. There is also the posibility of luminicense dating. Perhaps also the 10Be/26Al or 36Cl exposure dating. Obviously $pecialist techniques.

Quote:
Ever try a Foo Fighter? Wink


The only fake thing I fought were tow darts (aereal practice targets). Two kills. (you're not supposed to kill them.

Quote:
As for the different ages in die offs of mammoths, could there not have been "occurrence(s) of rapid climatic variation during the last ice age"? Thus rendering conditions sometimes favourable for the herd and sometimes not so favourable. Sometimes flooding, muddy or with thin ice conditions.


Certainly not to be ruled out. Interestingly enough the Jarkov Mammoth (20,350 +/- 160 BP) and the Fishhook mammoth (20,620 +/- 70 14C BP) were almost codated and were both found on Taimyr peninsyula.
Baywax

scpg02 wrote:
Quote:
And, this was the first time I wished I could date hewn stone for the period it was worked.


Can't they do that by measuring the amount of oxidation the stone has undergone? Seems like they did that with the Sphinx because of the controversy over when it was constructed. I happen to agree with Dr. Schoch on that one BTW.


I've heard about using oxidation to date a culturally modified stone but I've never seen reference to it as evidence of the age of a particular piece. Sounds like another bout of google is in the works.

Difficulties lay in that you don't always know which part of a stone has not been modified. You don't always have a natural benchmark to match your "oxidation reading" against. Oxidation takes place over a longer period in thinner attmosphere and that would have to be accounted for. One would need to be sure that benchmarks didn't roll down from 14,000 feet which is common in British Columbia.

Stones can also be imported or they can be dug from anaerobic conditions thus rendering oxidation measurements skewed somewhat.

Who is Dr. Schoh. Is he proposing the 12,000bp foundation for the Great Pyramid with later construction? (The idea that the foundation is much older than the pyramid is based on the similarities of the configuration of the Giza Plateau's pyramid complex to the configuration of Orion's Belt at the same period of 12,000bp.)

It would not be surprising if this or other evidences pointed to the same date (12,000bp) considering that there is a city recently discovered that is 2 miles east to west by 5 miles north to south off the west coast of India in 120 feet of ocean (similar depth as the "melt water pulse" of the LGM). The straw contained in the cities brickwork dated (C14) back to approx. 9500 years. The city was modern in the sense that it has storm drains, sewage etc.

Quote:
Over 2000 "artifacts" have been retrieved from the bottom of the gulf. "Artifacts" resembling tools, human remains, pottery, jewels, even literature have all been recovered. Large blocks were discovered that could have been possible foundations for the twin-metropolis' that are said to exist in the Gulf. Such a city would not be impossible, but it would mean the discovery of the oldest civilization in the world, disproving the original theory that modern civilization originated in Mesopotamia (Modern Day Iraq).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_in_the_Gulf_of_Cambay

So, how far fetched would it be to realize an earlier date for the Giza Plateau's structures?


//
scpg02

Dr. Schoch is a geologist that was contacted about the erosion on the Sphinx. His contention is that the erosion on the Sphinx walls was caused by rain. The only time there has been significant rain in that region was 10,500 BC. It's a controversial theory, one in which I believe. There is another temple that has no hieroglyphs that I believe is part of an earlier culture as well. It is possible that the layout of the pyramids stems from this earlier culture. That may be stretching it though. The guy, can't remember his name, that proposes that also says that most ancient cultures harken back to this including Anchor in Cambodia etc.

Dr. Schoch has also looked at the underwater blocks off the coast of Japan and says they are natural not man made. I have a lot of respect for his work.
Baywax

Anything under water is well preserved (topic). Although I suppose freezing has a similar effect.

The site with no hieroglyphs could be Abydos. It has some enormass lyths at over 90 tons that have been placed gingerly on top of one another. There are, however, hieroglyphs around the top of the inside. These show some of Andre's fighter jets, a helicopter, tanks and other strange apparitions that may or may not be authentic.....



The other structure, the Great Pyramid has very little hieroglyphic messages. In fact nothing mentions Khufu who is proported to have commissioned the structure. The only reference to this Khufu was a bit of graphiti on a piece of stone above the "King's Chamber". I'd say the actual, physical history of these pieces has been skewed beyond recognition... almost like a religion.



Nicely preserved, mind you, even if they are not extinct megafauna in a remote and rather muddy place.

Wink
scpg02

Baywax wrote:
These show some of Andre's fighter jets, a helicopter, tanks and other strange apparitions that may or may not be authentic.....
Wink


Off topic is my middle name. If I'm remembering the hieroglyphs you are referencing I have seen those explained and yeah one does look like a helicopter and one a flying saucer. Apparently they are like a double exposure. One set of glyphs superimposed on another causing the odd shapes that only modern times would recognize.

Edit: I looked up Abydos and that isn't the temple I was talking about. The one I had in mind is at the Pyramid site. It is below ground level compared to the pyramids and has no hieroglyphs. The temple matches one in South American that also has no writing on it. Can't remember the name of that one either. I tried looking them up not long ago and couldn't find them. I may have another route that will get me there though.

Second edit: Robert Bauval is the guy who came up with this theory of ancient cultures being linked. I guess if we want to continue this discussion we really should make a new thread.
Andre

scpg02 wrote:
Dr. Schoch is a geologist that was contacted about the erosion on the Sphinx. His contention is that the erosion on the Sphinx walls was caused by rain. The only time there has been significant rain in that region was 10,500 BC. It's a controversial theory, one in which I believe. There is another temple that has no hieroglyphs that I believe is part of an earlier culture as well. It is possible that the layout of the pyramids stems from this earlier culture. That may be stretching it though. The guy, can't remember his name, that proposes that also says that most ancient cultures harken back to this including Anchor in Cambodia etc.

Dr. Schoch has also looked at the underwater blocks off the coast of Japan and says they are natural not man made. I have a lot of respect for his work.


There is quite some evidence that North Africa was much more humid from about 14,800 years ago to 5500 years ago, interrupted by the dry Younger Dryas. That's called the african humid period.
Latecommer

Very interesting subject. (the first one I mean)
Have you ruled out the chances of a Lahar event causing the initial burial?

I agree that this topic should be split.....both threads need more pulling on...
Latecommer

Andre

I am unclear as to the present understanding of when the Sahara dried up? Was it related to the Y.D.?
scpg02

Andre wrote:
scpg02 wrote:
Dr. Schoch is a geologist that was contacted about the erosion on the Sphinx. His contention is that the erosion on the Sphinx walls was caused by rain. The only time there has been significant rain in that region was 10,500 BC. It's a controversial theory, one in which I believe. There is another temple that has no hieroglyphs that I believe is part of an earlier culture as well. It is possible that the layout of the pyramids stems from this earlier culture. That may be stretching it though. The guy, can't remember his name, that proposes that also says that most ancient cultures harken back to this including Anchor in Cambodia etc.

Dr. Schoch has also looked at the underwater blocks off the coast of Japan and says they are natural not man made. I have a lot of respect for his work.


There is quite some evidence that North Africa was much more humid from about 14,800 years ago to 5500 years ago, interrupted by the dry Younger Dryas. That's called the african humid period.


The controversy comes not from the idea that this period was wet but from the idea that the Sphinx was built during this period. It goes against accepted Egyptology.
Baywax

There was speculation that the same sort of erosion seen on the sphynx today (yet is under constant "renovation") could have been caused by sand erosion. This was the only defence offered against the head-spinning idea that the sphynx is from a date that is more like 12,500 bp. What is also considered is that the body and the head were carved at different times. The head resembling a later period of the culture and the body a modification of the area's topography that was exicuted at an earlier date. There are quite a few possibilities.
scpg02

Sand erosion is not possible. Sand erosion blowing against a vertical wall will erode soft layers but the wall remains vertical. The American south west if a prime example. Even flooding, which is another reason given, is not consistent with the type of erosion seen. The walls around the Sphinx were clearly the result of rain and lots of it.

Redating the Sphinx: Reflections on the Geology
by David P. Billington, Jr.
Baywax

scpg02 wrote:
Sand erosion is not possible. Sand erosion blowing against a vertical wall will erode soft layers but the wall remains vertical. The American south west if a prime example. Even flooding, which is another reason given, is not consistent with the type of erosion seen. The walls around the Sphinx were clearly the result of rain and lots of it.

Redating the Sphinx: Reflections on the Geology
by David P. Billington, Jr.



That's what I believe as well. But, lets remember its not OUR Sphynx. Its Egypt's and the Director of Egyptian Antiquity's Sphynx. The guy has complete control over all of that stuff.

If Egyptians came to New Mexico (again....[little joke about Egyptian temples in the Grand Canyon and the "Hopi" canals which resemble Egyptian canal systems to a tee]) and they started handing out theories and dates to the Hopi and Anastazi about their ruins I have a feeling the FirstNations would, in a knee jerk response, refuse to entertain the ideas.

PS. Once the rains had subsided and arid conditions ensued the Sphynx was buried in sand (and preserved) for thousands of years.

Any chance that this sand burial would preserve a Mammoth... like, mummify it? Especially considering the arid conditions.

PPS Sand isn't always blowing sideways. I think the Director of Antiquities was imagining the sand piling on top and running down the sides... like water. And water does sometimes mimic sand or visa versa. Since the Sphynx was buried in sand and exposed many times there had to have been some vertical as well as horizontal erosion taking place because of the abrasive nature of sand.

Come to think of it.... Mammoth remains wouldn't survive in Saharian type sand since it moves around so much.
scpg02

Baywax wrote:
scpg02 wrote:
Sand erosion is not possible. Sand erosion blowing against a vertical wall will erode soft layers but the wall remains vertical. The American south west if a prime example. Even flooding, which is another reason given, is not consistent with the type of erosion seen. The walls around the Sphinx were clearly the result of rain and lots of it.

Redating the Sphinx: Reflections on the Geology
by David P. Billington, Jr.


That's what I believe as well. But, lets remember its not OUR Sphynx. Its the Egypt's and the Director of Egyptian Antiquity's Sphynx. The guy has complete control over all of that stuff.

If Egyptians came to New Mexico (again....[little joke about Egyptian temples in the Grand Canyon and the "Hopi" canals which resemble Egyptian canal systems to a tee]) and they started handing out theories and dates to the Hopi and Anastazi about their ruins I have a feeling the FirstNations would, in a knee jerk response, refuse to entertain the ideas.


Of that I have no doubt. Look at their reaction to Kennewick man.
Baywax

scpg02 wrote:
Dr. Schoch is a geologist that was contacted about the erosion on the Sphinx. His contention is that the erosion on the Sphinx walls was caused by rain. The only time there has been significant rain in that region was 10,500 BC. It's a controversial theory, one in which I believe. There is another temple that has no hieroglyphs that I believe is part of an earlier culture as well. It is possible that the layout of the pyramids stems from this earlier culture. That may be stretching it though. The guy, can't remember his name, that proposes that also says that most ancient cultures harken back to this including Anchor in Cambodia etc.

Dr. Schoch has also looked at the underwater blocks off the coast of Japan and says they are natural not man made. I have a lot of respect for his work.


Here's some other people's opinions:

Quote:
MASAAKI KIMURA: First, if you ask me if it is natural or an artefact, I can say almost 100%, close to 100% that it cannot be made naturally.

SIMKIN: Isn’t it possible though, in fact isn’t it probable, that these shape occurred naturally and that’s certainly the view some overseas experts take.

MASAAKI KIMURA: We have been able to collect relics, stone tools, relief carvings of animal figures, lithography with characters carved and direct evidence that humans existed. Therefore, as a result, we consider it an artefact.

SIMKIN: There are some striking similarities between the underwater ruins and Okinawa’s above water ones, particularly the ancient castles. This is Shuri Jo, ancient heart of the Okinawan empire. The shape, size and style, the combination of walls, arches and walkways are reminiscent of the monument although there are key differences. The castle was built with millions of small rocks, the monument was carved out of several enormous ones.


http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1110981.htm

Video of some of the exploration of this underwater site:

http://itn.co.uk/videos/91fb12c8091043f644d4769322b362d5.html
Underwater in Yonaguni, Japan



Terraces and steps: prehistoric rock-hewn structures at Qenko in the high Andes mountains of Peru.



Designed or natural?!


Erosion is especially evident on the submerged rock. I'm not sure if this is an indication of the age of the alleged cultural modifications or a sign of the eroding powers of water and current.

I've read Dr. Schoch's "official website" and, judging from his and John Anthony West's descriptions ,it appears that he has missed this portion of the site.

http://www.robertschoch.net/Divin...0West%20Colette%20Dowell%20CT.htm
NileQueen

Beeswax, do you know about the underwater ruins off the coast of India?

Re: desert weathering. Generally sand erodes only up to 4 or 5 feet above ground during saltation. You often see formations out West
with a large chunk of rock up on a skinny column of rock. This is due to wind erosion.
scpg02

Baywax wrote:
I've read Dr. Schoch's "official website" and, judging from his and John Anthony West's descriptions ,it appears that he has missed this portion of the site.

http://www.robertschoch.net/Divin...0West%20Colette%20Dowell%20CT.htm


In the show I saw on this, where I learned of his oposition to this being a man made artifact, he went over all the different aspects that they claim prove it was man made. He not only had explanations for each one but pictures of natural formations that mirror everything.

That said, I do think they need to continue their research.
Andre

Is it relevan if it can be made natural or articifial

The better question is if it can be made submerged, under water?

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/

How about that Cuban city? Could that have been made under water?
scpg02

Andre wrote:
Is it relevan if it can be made natural or articifial

The better question is if it can be made submerged, under water?

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/

How about that Cuban city? Could that have been made under water?


I thought the idea of both sites was that they were cities when ocean levels were much lower.
Andre

scpg02 wrote:
Andre wrote:
Is it relevan if it can be made natural or articifial

The better question is if it can be made submerged, under water?

http://www.nwidi.org/TheMegaBlog/

How about that Cuban city? Could that have been made under water?


I thought the idea of both sites was that they were cities when ocean levels were much lower.


Well the Japanese site is only a few dozen feed below sea surface but the Cuban "city" is 2200 feet below sea level. six-seven times more than could be accounted for by the ice age ice sheets - sea level yoyo.
scpg02

Andre wrote:
Well the Japanese site is only a few dozen feed below sea surface but the Cuban "city" is 2200 feet below sea level. six-seven times more than could be accounted for by the ice age ice sheets - sea level yoyo.


I assumed you were talking about the bimini road. Not sure I have that spelled right. I remember reports of the Cuban city but haven't heard anything after the initial reports.
Essan

Back on subject Wink A new steppe bison has been found in the North-West Territories

http://www.mytelus.com/ncp_news/a....do?pn=tech&articleID=2752230
Andre

thanks Andy,

About

Quote:
But if it is - as we suspect - an ice-age bison, it might be one of the first found in the Northwest Territories."


it may be known that the adjacent Yukon Territory is loaded with ice age bisons dated around 30,000 years ago. Very keen to hear about the dating of this specimen. 20,000 years would be outrageous, in the middle of the Laurentide ice sheet.
Baywax

NileQueen wrote:
Beeswax, do you know about the underwater ruins off the coast of India?

Re: desert weathering. Generally sand erodes only up to 4 or 5 feet above ground during saltation. You often see formations out West
with a large chunk of rock up on a skinny column of rock. This is due to wind erosion.


Yes... the ruins are well documented. Disgruntled archaeologists who dated earlier excavations incorrectly are trying to down-play the discoveries found in 40-120 feet of water . I've posted info on the 2 mile wide and 5 mile long city they've found off the west coast of India but here's a bit more of a report from the Times of India.

Quote:
Pre-Harappan bricks found in Gulf of Cambay
18 Jul 2004,

VADODARA: In an underwater exploration in the Gulf of Cambay, National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) scientists discovered almost 9,500-year-old bricks made of clay and straw. (good for C-14 dating)

Archaeological experts of the MS University who, too, are involved in a part of the exploration near Surat and the coast of Gulf of Cambay, however, feel that a further insight into the size of the bricks can confirm its age and its period.

The bricks, believed to be pre-Harappan, have been identified to be of the Holocene age.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.co...ml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=782649

This discovery holds the promise of uprooting outdated beliefs that Sumer and Babylon and Assyria were the "birth places of civilization". And the whole excavation and exploration is now under enormass scrutiny and attacks by the same people who assigned such an importance to the Babylonians.

With the "melt water pulse" and other gains in sea level every continent lost a large amount of coastline. In fact it was a loss of a world wide equivalent of a continent itself. So, there are targets for underwater archaeologists all over the world that have not been touched. We are talking about the possibility of human civilization stretching back as far as 15,000 years. Its just a matter of time, money and getting to the sites before any malicious activity takes place in an attempt to maintain the previously established, but incorrect theories.

Sand erosion. So, its just wind that creating thos hoo doos?

BtheWay, I actually subscribe to the rain erosion on the sphynx... I'm just helping everyone try to understand the mind-set of the Director of Antiquities and how he certainly would never want to contradict his own theories.

And its too bad because, as I've said here, science is about trashing your own theories... in the interest of the truth.

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